Good post, Carl -- I think especially the point you make, that Christians show so little interest in the Christian political thinkers who most tried to help them, is worth considering, & will be for a long time to come...
The irony is that Kingsnorth is a former environmental activist who, entering the tent of Christianity, discovers to his dismay that some of his old foes, defenders of ‘civilisation’, have made the same journey, like Ayan Hirsi. So, whom does he oppose within the tent? Well, the same folks he opposed outside, accusing them of being modernists first and Christians second. But, maybe he’s got the same problem? Still, he’s got some great things to say. A challenging thinker.
Most great art (about the human experience) is Christian. If you define the human experience as solely a liberal concept, as your quote seems to do by appending "freedom" to human, then I'm not really sure how informative that is. In Christianity, we have a concept and theory of freedom that's within our scripture. Liberalism is literally watered down protestantism. There's not one new concept or term it contains that isn't covered in the Christian tradition, from natural rights to human rights to freedom.
Galatians 5:13
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."
Romans 6:18
"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
"Liberalism is literally watered down protestantism. There's not one new concept or term it contains that isn't covered in the Christian tradition, from natural rights to human rights to freedom." Shawn, the roots of the some of liberalism's concepts may trace back to Aquinas and other Christian thinkers on politics, but the concepts change as they come into liberalism. As an pol sci prof, I recommend some study of John Locke, perhaps with help from Michael Zuckert's book Natural Rights Republic. Then supplement Zuckert with the new Paul Seaton book on the Declaration of Indp. Seaton will give you the more critical Christian view on liberalism/Locke than will Zuckert. I might also recommend a book far more difficult than either of those, Ralph Hancock's book on Calvin--it shows, among other things, how varied Christian political thinking was prior to its coming to make, in America at least, terms with liberalism.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the recommendations, but that doesn't disagree with what I said. It changes certainly, but the concepts and values are covered entirely in protestantism or Christianity overall. Even going into negative rights to enhance freedom is very clearly protestant. The core concepts, although i wouldn't say the core, which imo is not explained from a protestant viewpoint, of separation of church and state, science and theology, individualism, i imagine free enterprise over the anti usury laws, are quite literally and explicitly from protestants. If you could give me a few ideas which aren't present in protestantism I'd be interested in following that rabbit hole, but the dictionary definition of liberalism is explicitly fought for by protestants in those terms. The terms may have applied to monarchies originally, but they've stayed the same as concepts for liberalism. The united states was hardly anything but protestants.
Edit: I wanted to re-mention that the ethos of liberalism (freedom) is essentially covered in Christianity and the protestant experience.
Good post, Carl -- I think especially the point you make, that Christians show so little interest in the Christian political thinkers who most tried to help them, is worth considering, & will be for a long time to come...
Excellent!
The irony is that Kingsnorth is a former environmental activist who, entering the tent of Christianity, discovers to his dismay that some of his old foes, defenders of ‘civilisation’, have made the same journey, like Ayan Hirsi. So, whom does he oppose within the tent? Well, the same folks he opposed outside, accusing them of being modernists first and Christians second. But, maybe he’s got the same problem? Still, he’s got some great things to say. A challenging thinker.
Most great art (about the human experience) is Christian. If you define the human experience as solely a liberal concept, as your quote seems to do by appending "freedom" to human, then I'm not really sure how informative that is. In Christianity, we have a concept and theory of freedom that's within our scripture. Liberalism is literally watered down protestantism. There's not one new concept or term it contains that isn't covered in the Christian tradition, from natural rights to human rights to freedom.
Galatians 5:13
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."
Romans 6:18
"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
"Liberalism is literally watered down protestantism. There's not one new concept or term it contains that isn't covered in the Christian tradition, from natural rights to human rights to freedom." Shawn, the roots of the some of liberalism's concepts may trace back to Aquinas and other Christian thinkers on politics, but the concepts change as they come into liberalism. As an pol sci prof, I recommend some study of John Locke, perhaps with help from Michael Zuckert's book Natural Rights Republic. Then supplement Zuckert with the new Paul Seaton book on the Declaration of Indp. Seaton will give you the more critical Christian view on liberalism/Locke than will Zuckert. I might also recommend a book far more difficult than either of those, Ralph Hancock's book on Calvin--it shows, among other things, how varied Christian political thinking was prior to its coming to make, in America at least, terms with liberalism.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the recommendations, but that doesn't disagree with what I said. It changes certainly, but the concepts and values are covered entirely in protestantism or Christianity overall. Even going into negative rights to enhance freedom is very clearly protestant. The core concepts, although i wouldn't say the core, which imo is not explained from a protestant viewpoint, of separation of church and state, science and theology, individualism, i imagine free enterprise over the anti usury laws, are quite literally and explicitly from protestants. If you could give me a few ideas which aren't present in protestantism I'd be interested in following that rabbit hole, but the dictionary definition of liberalism is explicitly fought for by protestants in those terms. The terms may have applied to monarchies originally, but they've stayed the same as concepts for liberalism. The united states was hardly anything but protestants.
Edit: I wanted to re-mention that the ethos of liberalism (freedom) is essentially covered in Christianity and the protestant experience.